Legislature(1993 - 1994)
03/22/1993 08:30 AM House FSH
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE SPECIAL COMMITTEE ON FISHERIES
MARCH 22, 1993
8:30 a.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Carl E. Moses, Chairman
Representative Harley Olberg, Vice-Chairman
Representative Gail Phillips
Representative Cliff Davidson
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Irene Nicholia
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HB 134 "An Act relating to temporary transfers of
commercial fisheries entry permits."
HELD IN COMMITTEE FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION
*HB 218 "An Act repealing the restriction on the maximum
length of salmon seine vessels; and providing for
an effective date."
HELD IN COMMITTEE FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION
(* first public hearing)
WITNESS REGISTER
Alvin Osterback
P.O. Box 188
Sand Point, AK 99661
Phone: 383-2363
Position Statement: Supported HB 134; Opposed HB 218
Joe McGill
P.O. Box 322
Dillingham, AK 99576
Phone: 842-2452
Position Statement: Supported HB 134
Robin Samuelson
P.O. Box 412
Dillingham, AK 99576
Phone: 842-5257
Position Statement: Supported HB 134; Opposed HB 218
Norman Anderson
General Delivery
Naknek, AK 99633
Phone: 246-4423
Position Statement: Supported HB 134
Adelheid Herrmann
P.O. Box 263
Naknek, AK 99633
Phone: 246-6618
Position Statement: Supported HB 134
Richard Listowski, Commissioner
Commercial Fisheries Entry Commission
8800 Glacier Highway, Suite 109
Juneau, AK 99801-8079
Phone: 789-6160
Position Statement: Opposed HB 134
Jeff Meucci
P.O. Box 1086
Petersburg, AK 99833
Phone: 772-4669
Position Statement: Opposed HB 134
Jack Foster
P.O. Box 254
Sand Point, AK 99661
Phone: 383-3633
Position Statement: Supported HB 134; Opposed HB 218
Stan Chmiel
General Delivery
Naknek, AK 99633
Phone: 246-4243
Position Statement: Supported HB 134 with amendments
Mike Lopez
P.O. Box 636
Valdez, AK 99686
Phone: 835-2396
Position Statement: Supported HB 134; Supported HB 218
Kate Troll, Executive Director
Southeast Alaska Seiners Association
9226 Long Run
Juneau, AK 99801
Phone: 789-5117
Position Statement: Supported CSHB 218 (FSH)
Elma Angasan
General Delivery
King Salmon, AK 99613
Phone: 246-7483
Position Statement: Supported HB 134
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 134
SHORT TITLE: TEMP TRANSFER OF ENTRY PERMITS
BILL VERSION:
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MOSES
TITLE: "An Act relating to temporary transfers of commercial
fisheries entry permits."
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
02/05/93 236 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)
02/05/93 236 (H) FISHERIES, RESOURCES, JUDICIARY,
FINANCE
02/15/93 (H) MINUTE(JUD)
02/17/93 (H) FSH AT 09:00 AM CAPITOL 17
03/22/93 (H) FSH AT 08:30 AM CAPITOL 17
BILL: HB 218
SHORT TITLE: REPEAL 58 FT. LIMIT FOR SEINE VESSELS
BILL VERSION:
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) MOSES
TITLE: "An Act repealing the restriction on the maximum
length of salmon seine vessels; and providing for an
effective date."
JRN-DATE JRN-PG ACTION
03/10/93 592 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME/REFERRAL(S)
03/10/93 592 (H) FISHERIES, RESOURCES
03/22/93 (H) FSH AT 08:30 AM CAPITOL 17
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 93-13, SIDE A
Number 000
CHAIRMAN CARL MOSES called the meeting to order at 8:35 a.m.
He noted Representatives Moses, Olberg and Phillips in
attendance and said the meeting would begin by bringing up
once again HB 134 and then hearing HB 218.
HB 134: TEMP TRANSFER OF ENTRY PERMITS
CHAIRMAN MOSES reminded the committee they had already taken
testimony on HB 134 and had before them a proposed Committee
Substitute (CSHB 134 (FSH)) which would limit the temporary
transfer of entry permits to immediate family only. The
last section of the proposed CS includes a non-severability
clause, which basically means if one of the provisions of
the bill gets challenged in court and thrown out, the whole
program gets voided.
Number 120
ALVIN OSTERBACK testified in favor of HB 134. He noted at
this time only wealthy people, such as doctors and lawyers,
could afford to buy limited entry permits, resulting in
permits leaving the local communities. He believed HB 134
could help with that situation.
JOE MCGILL spoke in favor of HB 134 because it was a way to
keep permits in the local region.
ROBIN SAMUELSON also supported HB 134 because elders were
being forced to sell their permits, and HB 134 is a way to
let the younger members of the family obtain them, thus
keeping permits in Alaska and in the villages.
CHAIRMAN MOSES noted CSHB 134 (FSH) would limit the transfer
to immediate family members only.
NORMAN ANDERSON testified in favor of HB 134, referring to
the high level of out-migration of permits which results in
a loss of income to the villages. Since current law
requires the permit holder to be on-site at the fishery,
elders' lives are being endangered, he said.
ADELHEID HERRMANN spoke in favor of HB 134 because the
existing regulation on medical transfers prohibits a
continuing disability, keeping many elders out of the
limited entry program. She noted most fishermen and elder
Natives did not have a retirement system. She questioned
the constitutionality of limiting the transfer to family
members as proposed in CSHB 134 (FSH).
RICHARD LISTOWSKI, COMMISSIONER, COMMERCIAL FISHERIES ENTRY
COMMISSION (CFEC), reminded the committee of the CFEC's
opposition to HB 134, although the new amendments in the
proposed CSHB 134 (FSH) improve the bill. He explained how
the bill would create a special class of people that would
be exempted from the limited entry statute's anti-leasing
provision. He argued that it would make enforcement of the
anti-leasing provision difficult.
REPRESENTATIVE GAIL PHILLIPS asked if the lease would "go up
for grabs" if the permit-holder died.
MR. LISTOWSKI responded that under current law, the permit
would go to the spouse of the permit-holder or to the person
indicated in the will, or whatever the court directed. If
the person is not 65 and is not disabled, the person could
not continue leasing it, he said.
CHAIRMAN MOSES asked about the possibility of removing the
anti-leasing provision in the limited entry statute.
MR. LISTOWSKI asked the committee to look at section 7 in
the findings of HB 134, which indicates that annual leasing
of permits would be destructive to the commercial fishing
industry. Even with the restrictions on who could transfer
their permit, the bill would still create a class of
absentee permit holders, especially of non-residents.
MR. LISTOWSKI also described recent advertisements he has
seen for brokers in Seattle who are interested in
benefitting financially from such a program. For example,
one broker was offering $30,000 up front to broker a medical
transfer for a Bristol Bay permit. Although he understood
the problems that elderly people have, MR. LISTOWSKI said
there are some long range impacts that must be considered
before final action is taken.
MR. LISTOWSKI declared HB 134 is intended to help young
people, but once you allow leasing, people want to lease to
whomever can pay the highest price, and these are not
necessarily the young people. He also argued that HB 134
would drive up the cost of permits, since for many people,
it would make more sense to hold on to a permit and lease
it, rather than transferring it. This would result in
making it harder for young people to get into the fishery.
MR. LISTOWSKI also noted the existence of a Commercial
Fisheries and Agriculture Bank (CFAB) program that would
assist younger people in buying permits.
VICE CHAIR HARLEY OLBERG questioned the CFEC's chart
detailing the medical emergency transfer activity.
MR. LISTOWSKI replied that emergency medical transfers
included heart attacks, broken legs, pressing family
business, and National Guard duty. He noted most emergency
transfers happen in a day, some have been turned down and
appealed. Medical transfers are verified by a doctor.
VICE CHAIR OLBERG asked if such a transfer could be taken by
an out-of-state resident.
MR. LISTOWSKI acknowledged almost anyone 65 or older could
get a doctor's letter.
VICE CHAIR OLBERG questioned why the medical transfer
program was insufficient.
MR. LISTOWSKI pointed out the medical reason for an
emergency transfer can only be used for one year. If HB 134
passes, the permit holder would not have to come back to the
CFEC, and the emergency transfer could be done for the rest
of the holder's life.
CHAIRMAN MOSES had further questions about the medical
transfer.
MR. LISTOWSKI reiterated the medical transfer is only good
for one year. He described a woman in Bristol Bay, in her
mid- 30s, who has severe arthritis, and can only get the
transfer for one year. She would like to see HB 134
extended to include those below 65 years of age.
MR. LISTOWSKI also explained that the CFEC was more lenient
10 years ago and allowed for the medical reason to be used
for two years. However, he said the CFEC discovered that a
lot of the emergency transfers were actually leases, and the
program became difficult to enforce.
REPRESENTATIVE PHILLIPS asked if it was not possible for a
permit holder to just be on the boat and have someone else
do the work.
MR. LISTOWSKI replied in the affirmative, adding the permit
holder has to be physically present when fish are sold.
CHAIRMAN MOSES interjected it might still be dangerous for
someone with severe arthritis to actually be on the boat.
MR. LISTOWSKI acknowledged these concerns, but noted
sometimes when you try to fix a problem, you create more
problems than you solve.
JEFF MEUCCI, a Bristol Bay fisherman living in Petersburg,
testified in opposition to HB 134. He said although the
intent is good, it would open the door for potential abuse.
He expressed concern about tight budgets for the affected
departments, and that passing a law which would require more
enforcement did not make sense.
JACK FOSTER testified in support of HB 134 because it would
allow old-timers to have a retirement fund, and it would
help keep permits in the state.
MR. FOSTER indicated his opposition to HB 218, because
taking the limit off seiners would open a new can of worms.
The price of boats is already declining, he said, and HB 218
would result in a mad scramble for everyone to get a bigger
boat. Most of the time, the boats used now are pretty
adequate, he believed.
Number 650
STAN CHMIEL commented on section 8 of HB 134, which would
require a permit holder to have been a fisherman for 10
years or more to qualify for the temporary transfer program.
He said the original draft looked like it was trying to cut
old-timers out, but this draft looked okay.
MR. LISTOWSKI informed the committee 79% of permit holders
are residents, and the ratio has been stable since the
program's inception in 1975. Many of the permits left the
villages in the early days, he said, but not as many now.
TAPE 93-13, SIDE B
Number 000
MR. LISTOWSKI indicated the main shift in permits is from
rural to more urban areas.
ADELHEID HERRMANN asked Mr. Listowski if the CFEC planned to
make the emergency medical transfer more lenient.
MR. LISTOWSKI replied that the CFEC has tried to bend over
backwards to issue emergency transfers, especially if it
involved family members, although he was open to suggested
improvements. He once again mentioned the CFAB program,
which is a risk-sharing program to help rural Alaskans. No
one has yet taken advantage of this program, he pointed out.
HB 134 WAS HELD IN COMMITTEE FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION.
HB 218: REPEAL 58 FT. LIMIT FOR SEINE VESSELS
CHAIRMAN MOSES opened up testimony on HB 218.
MIKE LOPEZ testified in support of HB 134 first, and also in
support of HB 218, explaining that if a person can buy a
bigger boat, they should be able to. With one boat you can
do a lot more fishing, he said.
CHAIRMAN MOSES clarified the committee had a proposed
committee substitute (CSHB 218 (FSH)) which would have the
Board of Fisheries decide on the length restrictions for any
region of the state.
ROBIN SAMUELSON testified in opposition to HB 218. As a
member of the Alaska Board of Fisheries from 1989 to 1991,
he said he heard a lot of testimony from people across the
state. Most people are happy with the seine limit, he
believed. People want stability in their fisheries, he
noted, and since most fisheries are over-capitalized anyway,
repealing the 58 foot limit would add more uncertainty. For
the sake of stability, he would oppose any change.
KATE TROLL, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE SOUTHEAST ALASKA
SEINERS ASSOCIATION, testified in support of the proposed
CSHB 218 (FSH). She said her executive committee supported
the committee substitute because the seine vessel length is
the only length in statute. The 32 foot Bristol Bay limit
is a Board of Fish regulation. This is a board of fish
matter, she said, not a legislative matter. She
acknowledged she did not know whether or not Southeast
seiners would want the length restriction changed. Some are
interested, she said, because there is no place on a boat
now for extra crew to do value-added work.
MS. TROLL advised another concern her group had was that
taking off the limit would lower the value of the current 58
foot boats. This discussion, she further stated, would come
out before the Board of Fish on a region by region basis.
The way the legislation is written, she pointed out, it
dovetails when the Board takes up Southeast issues, but
language to keep the limit in place until the Board of Fish
cycle reaches each region might be desirable.
ALVIN OSTERBACK testified in opposition to HB 218, claiming
the bill would result in dropping the price of limited
seiners. He asked who would gain from the bill.
On HB 134, MR. OSTERBACK testified he would be 79 years old
in January, 1994, and hoped HB 134 would be passed so he
could use it.
ELMA ANGASAN testified in support of HB 134, calling it a
good bill, although it doesn't address all of her concerns.
HB 218 WAS HELD FOR FURTHER CONSIDERATION.
ADJOURNMENT
CHAIRMAN CARL MOSES adjourned the meeting at 9:45 a.m.
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